The Most Important Aspect of Alfa Romeo's New 4C

"Tim (Fractal Footwork)" (fractalfootwork)
09/25/2013 at 12:30 • Filed to: Carbon Fiber, Economics, Alfa Romeo, 4C, OppositeLock

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While Alfa's latest creation may seem to pin consumers between power and price, the Italians have hid something quite special under the 4C's bonnet. To date, carbon fiber monocoque chassis have been reserved for supercar manufactures because of the extreme cost associated with their creation.

A carbon fiber chassis is made by weaving strips of carbon strands into a sheet. The sheet of weaved carbon is then positioned along with more sheets into a mathematically determined position in the shape of the chassis. The molded sheets of carbon fiber are then placed into a large oven; this hardens the carbon and makes the chassis rigid.

Carbon fiber increases chassis rigidity and reduces weight significantly over aluminum and steel alternatives. Reducing the weight of a car improves everything: top speed, acceleration, handling, circuit speed, and of course your precious fuel consumption.

McLaren's comparison between their all-new MP4-12C's carbon fiber tub (left) and their original Formula 1 carbon fiber tub (right).

Alfa Romeo brings carbon fiber to a market sector that has yet to even hear a whisper of its inevitability. Unfortunately, the cost of production surrounding carbon fiber hasn't dropped as far as the Italians were hoping, and the 4C is now estimated to start at $86 thousand instead of the originally hoped $60 thousand arena; however, this does not stop carbon fiber's march toward affordability for the masses. Alfa Romeo and Maserati's continued and increased production of the material will create a technological push toward reducing the costs and efficiency of creating carbon fiber, not just by the Fiat subsidiaries, but also by their competitors eager to introduce carbon fiber structures into their own sub-supercar performance cars.

Maserati workers preparing the Alfa Romeo 4C's chassis.

Alfa Romeo's newest sportscar will break down the synonymous association carbon fiber has with supercars and begin in lowering the costs of production so that the Formula 1 spec super material can finally reach the mouths of the average consumer. In 10 years or less, we will see our favorite $25,000 sports cars implementing carbon fiber structures (Miata anyone?), and in 20 years time, we may even see our not-so-favorite-eco-friendly-sedans start using carbon fiber in an attempt to save precious gasoline.

[ Some numbers from !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! ]

DISCUSSION (100)

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > Tim (Fractal Footwork)
09/25/2013 at 12:40

I think the most important aspect should be making sure customers don't see it's front end.

LOL, that's just my opinion though, everyone else seems to lover the thing.

Nice write up, I'd love to see more CF make into everyday cars.

Saracen > Tim (Fractal Footwork)
09/25/2013 at 12:40

That article is four months old.

The official word from Alfa Romeo is that the car will start at $54000 here.

Meatcoma > Tim (Fractal Footwork)
09/25/2013 at 12:41

And what was once slightly out of reach but slightly possible with some finagling of finances is now completely out of reach again. Tempting me with a 50k price tag does not help anyone. Future 4C posts are 2nd read again like most cars that I cannot afford.

Bruno Martini > Tim (Fractal Footwork)
09/25/2013 at 12:54

I would not hold my breath on this one. Most manufacturers are now only getting into the high tensile strength steel and aluminum into chassis. And even that is rare. They said that alu and high strength steel would be the norm in the 80's, fast forward 30 years and its still not the norm.

Did you know that s197 mustangs have an aluminum hood?

6cyl > Tim (Fractal Footwork)
09/25/2013 at 13:04

Kinja'd!!!

$41,000 starting price. Carbon Fiber cars in mass production

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

getchapopcorn > Saracen
09/25/2013 at 13:23

Correct, but with the extreme limited production and what I would imagine would be fairly high demand for something "different" in that price range, I suspect closer to 80K after dealer markup is closer to accurate.

Saracen > getchapopcorn
09/25/2013 at 13:31

Well that is a different issue.

The article you are paraphrasing indicates an $80k msrp due to increased manufacturing costs.

Having said that, I'm sure there will be dealers attempting to fleece customers on the car, but *not* by %50 markup..

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > Meatcoma
09/25/2013 at 13:31

Sounds like it's C7 time then!

getchapopcorn > Saracen
09/25/2013 at 13:35

I didn't paraphrase anything; I was just giving you my opinion. I'm sure that most dealers won't have a bone stock one, either. so let's assume 4-6 grand of optional extras on it — that get's you real close to 60. Then let's assume a .25 mark up (not unheard of at all — hell richard hammond had to pay that just to get a challenger) and you're looking at around mid seventies, which with tax and title puts you around 80.

Tim (Fractal Footwork) > Saracen
09/25/2013 at 13:36

Streets Ahead!

That is awesome, and supports my point.

Saracen > getchapopcorn
09/25/2013 at 13:37

"Unfortunately, the cost of production surrounding carbon fiber hasn't dropped as far as the Italians were hoping, and the 4C is now estimated to start at $86 thousand instead of the originally hoped $60 thousand arena"

That is referring to the increase in manufacturing costs....not dealer gouging.

So, which one is it?

Meatcoma > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner
09/25/2013 at 13:38

Hear that Alpha? Yup another customer walking away. Not that I would be one of the 3500 to have a 4C this year anyways. I'm gonna have to test drive a C7, I know it.

getchapopcorn > Saracen
09/25/2013 at 13:39

This isn't my article? I just said close to 80k, that's been my estimate since they first announced this thing coming back to the states after the had their first real good estimate of a price point.

minardi > Tim (Fractal Footwork)
09/25/2013 at 13:48

Hum, you all seems to forget something: the 4C is not to be mass produced (1200 in EU and apx 2500 in NA), but to be sold in order to re-introduce the Alfa Romeo in NA. I would not be surprised if the dealers all have a selling price strongly (ahem) suggested by the manufacturer...

Saracen > getchapopcorn
09/25/2013 at 13:55

rofl, my bad. I thought you were the OP. I need more caffeine.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > Meatcoma
09/25/2013 at 13:56

Everyone says they are fantastic.

getchapopcorn > Saracen
09/25/2013 at 14:14

No worries, bud!

duurtlang > Meatcoma
09/25/2013 at 15:22

There will be a cheaper RWD Alfa Romeo sports car. The one they'll develop with Mazda and which will share parts with the Miata.

Mr. Sinister > Tim (Fractal Footwork)
09/25/2013 at 15:25

Totally different cars I know, but 2014 Stingray.

Also, 2014 Stingray now replaces the V6 Mustang as the "Yeah, but you COULD buy...." car.

Meatcoma > duurtlang
09/25/2013 at 15:25

There will be a 'less desirable RWD Alfa Romeo' - Fixed.

Maxxuman > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner
09/25/2013 at 15:29

Why, what's wrong with it?

Kinja'd!!!

(with apologies to the few who saw this before)

mbcoffey > Tim (Fractal Footwork)
09/25/2013 at 15:30

Hey, look! It's the GTI's "Detroit" wheels!

Kinja'd!!!

philipilihp > 6cyl
09/25/2013 at 15:31

Carbon fiber is not necessarily the same thing as Carbon Fiber Reinforced Plastic though, even if CFRP is a good enough compromise to bring even a little carbon flavor to the mass car market.

stoke > Meatcoma
09/25/2013 at 15:31

Quit posturing. If you can't spell "Alfa," there's no way you were ever going to buy a 4C.

ptak appreciates old racecars > Tim (Fractal Footwork)
09/25/2013 at 15:33

The carbon fiber may be the most important thing about the 4C... but that's not gonna stop us from bitching about the headlights.

RazoE > Tim (Fractal Footwork)
09/25/2013 at 15:33

Holy shit, I've never paid attention to the profile before. It is glorious...!!!

Meatcoma > stoke
09/25/2013 at 15:33

I'm pretty sure I spelled Alpha correct, it's not my fault the Italians can't spell it right. Suck it.

ejp > Tim (Fractal Footwork)
09/25/2013 at 15:38

As far as I'm concerned, the most important aspect of the 4C is its lack of a manual transmission. I don't want one now; and it would otherwise be exactly the kind of fun car that I would buy. A lightweight car with a pure, raw driving experience, reasonably priced...perfect.

Elises seem to have bottomed out in market value, and are in the $25-35k range. Definitely gettable, and those have almost everything that I'd want from a sports car, and nothing that I don't (like an automatic transmission*).

*I don't care that a dual-clutch-gearbox isn't an automatic...for the purpose of this post, I'm calling anything without a manual clutch an automatic...CVT, dual clutch, sequential manual with a hydraulically actuated, computer controlled clutch...whatever.

Chaz Adams > Tim (Fractal Footwork)
09/25/2013 at 15:38

I cannot wait to see one in person, it looks so very tiny in pictures and videos

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > Maxxuman
09/25/2013 at 15:39

LOL

AMG OMG > Tim (Fractal Footwork)
09/25/2013 at 15:40

please forgive if a stupid question-I know nothing about carbon fiber except that when race cars with it collide, the TV announcers usually quip about how sharp the debris is, etc. My question is thus: how safe is a carbon fiber chassis or body in an accident? Is the debris going to cut up the occupants in a severe crash?

6cyl > philipilihp
09/25/2013 at 15:42

Sorry but in this case it is the same thing. Raw carbon fiber is just a stiff fabric. To make it hard they impregnate it with resin (plastic) and cure it. 99.99% carbon fiber used on any car is CRFP.

Now there is a difference between the various weaves of fabric and chopped strand matting but I have not read anything stating which combination either of these cars uses.

Beeblebrox237 > Tim (Fractal Footwork)
09/25/2013 at 15:46

Kinja'd!!!

This part of the car looks so sexy. And the rest of the car, too. Did I mention how beautiful this car is?

RiseVbove > getchapopcorn
09/25/2013 at 15:52

Is there such a thing in America, Dealer Mark up? WTF 60-80$ that'd be 20k Mark up.
I can't imagine such a thing in Europe.

J-Tenno > Tim (Fractal Footwork)
09/25/2013 at 15:53

I believe it also improves security, which you didn't mention in the article.

Although if I'm wrong, someone correct me.

Decay buys too many beaters > Tim (Fractal Footwork)
09/25/2013 at 15:56

I'll wait to see just how fucked up the U.S. spec version is compared to the European version. 220lbs is a huge weight gain.

Scootin159 > philipilihp
09/25/2013 at 15:56

I thought CFRP was just the technically correct name for what we all refer to as "Carbon Fiber". In reality the carbon fiber material is just a soft fabric, it's only when it's mixed with a resin (aka, the "plastic") that it becomes the strong stiff material we're accustomed to. This is in much the same way that "Fiberglass" is really "GRP" (glass reinforced plastic), aka fiberglass cloth + resin.

philipilihp > Scootin159
09/25/2013 at 15:58

I do stand corrected on this. After some research I realize that it is, in fact, the same thing. I thought I read with the BMW that very little of it is actually CF and most of it is combined with actual plastic to minimize the CF cost.

MiddleAgedAngryGuy > Tim (Fractal Footwork)
09/25/2013 at 15:59

I plan on looking very closely into this car at the NAIAS. If it's what I hope it will be I'll be pulling the trigger. I'm very interested in how the dealer network will pan out. I would imagine it will be available at select Fiat/Maserati dealers. The more I look at the headlights the more they grow on me. It'll be instantly recognizable to any Jalop if it's coming at you even in total darkness. Should be a great play toy to wholesale a few months after I get it.

Duckferd > Meatcoma
09/25/2013 at 16:01

Alfa= Anonima Lombarda Fabbrica Automobili. So they spelled it right.

Meatcoma > Duckferd
09/25/2013 at 16:01

jibberish!

getchapopcorn > RiseVbove
09/25/2013 at 16:02

I'm thinking 60 + (10-15k) + (tax, tags, title) 80k

Duckferd > 6cyl
09/25/2013 at 16:04

The BMW uses the chopped strand method, press forged. If you look at the Alfa, it's clearly using traditional pre-preg layup.

Duckferd > Bruno Martini
09/25/2013 at 16:05

It's the norm. HSS has been in cars for the better part of a few decades, the difference is that the content has been increasing. Most modern cars broke the 50% HSS threshold recently.

Duckferd > J-Tenno
09/25/2013 at 16:06

Come again? Security in what sense?

LJ909 > Tim (Fractal Footwork)
09/25/2013 at 16:09

Are there any details yet on where exactly they will be selling there? Like through Fiats networks or what? Im kinda hoping it sales because it will lead to the rest of the Alfa lineup coming here. But I think the sales people are going to have their work cut out for them because they got to convince people why this car from a brand that has been gone for over a decade, will command the (inevitable) markups over the established competition.

LJ909 > Tim (Fractal Footwork)
09/25/2013 at 16:09

Xander, Proud of BOXER > Tim (Fractal Footwork)
09/25/2013 at 16:15

The molded sheets of carbon fiber are then placed into a large oven; this hardens the carbon and makes the chassis rigid.

That's not how carbon fiber works. It is a composite because the carbon fiber is part of an epoxy matrix. It is baked in an oven at high pressures to cure and set the epoxy resin. The carbon fiber is hard because of the resin.

Scootin159 > philipilihp
09/25/2013 at 16:19

There are multiple ways of manufacturing CFRP parts, and the cost does go up depending on the method used - although it's mostly the one time tools & equipment costs, not so much the materials costs.

The ratio of CF to resin is a key element in the manufacturing technique - the goal is actually to have as little resin in the final product as possible, while still completely saturating the CF cloth. Too much resin and you're just adding weight and bulk to the completed part (as well as cost, resin isn't free), with essentially zero increase in part strength - too little resin and you'll end up with weak spots.

4play > RiseVbove
09/25/2013 at 16:20

The R35 GT-R had a suggested MSRP of under $70k; most were sold at over $90k AND there was a waiting list. It definitely exists, and will definitely be in effect with htis car. Limited production, Italian, carbon fiber monocoque, mid-engined sports car sold only at Maserati dealers = big time mark-up. I'm guessing mid-60s for a low options car and right at $70k for a fully optioned one.

RiseVbove > 4play
09/25/2013 at 16:22

Wow that's Crazy. Thanks

4play > Meatcoma
09/25/2013 at 16:23

$54K isn't too awful with a 6 year loan. $750/mo is pretty do-able actually - I'm paying like $480 for my TDI Sportwagen, and this thing is definitely sexy enough to justify an extra $300/mo.

TripleLynx > getchapopcorn
09/25/2013 at 16:23

No chance it sells with dealership markup. It isn't that limited (2500 a year). It is a niche market car. It is 240hp. Want proof, just look at the Lotus Evora. Some have been sitting on dealer's lots for 2 years unsold. It is much more limited than the 4C will be, and they are now selling for $20k under MSRP to get them off the lots.

irisfailsafe5000 > Tim (Fractal Footwork)
09/25/2013 at 16:24

This car is so Alfa in a bad way and the carbon monocoque explains it very well. So Alfa thought, we need an affordable sports car so we can be more than rebadged Fiats. Cool lets make it a mid engine car with a carbon monocoque, yes even Ferrari doesn't do that. This car will be amazing. So how much will this car cost? Over 100K. No that is no good maybe we can skip stuff such as a good steering wheel. And Power steering, front lights, a nice interior, a proper rear suspension and overall finish.. Ok now it's a bit over 50K now we can sell it. Oh but we forgot to make the design ready for North America. Oh we can add stuff and more weight and delay it for a while. You know Alfa says that those things are missing because they wanted to save weight but you know deep down that is not true. They removed those things because they made that monocoque and they ran out of money to engineer the rest of the car so they did the Italian way, just add bits and pieces and sell it on its soul.

So Alfa, this year we got the new Cayman which is better than ever, and a new Corvette which has zero compromises and still has a great price. Sure they don't have the carbon monocoque but is not like they are bad cars or won't perform at the level of the Alfa. I would argue that both will be faster and more livable than the 4C and will probably be more reliable as well.

Tim (Fractal Footwork) > Xander, Proud of BOXER
09/25/2013 at 16:24

Apologies, I didn't do any research on this because my main point was the continued fall in the cost of production of carbon fiber.

I will fix this later, thanks.

Meatcoma > 4play
09/25/2013 at 16:24

Up above it states the 4C is now estimated to start at $86k instead of the $55k area.

But that is the same thing I was thinking.

carmaniac > Bruno Martini
09/25/2013 at 16:25

The biggest challenge for Al and high-strength steels is forming. Al is relatively brittle compared to steel and high-strength steel also suffers from some of the same issues (cracking/reduced ductility from forming). Only with recent CAD press designs, stress analysis, heat treatment techniques and alloy refinement that they have been able to commercialize Al-alloys and (ultra) high-strength steels.

A word on carbon-fibre. Right now the biggest issue is supply. There are only a handful of companies that are able to mass produce the carbon fibres themselves. With the explosion of carbon fiber in every facet of transportation, sports and lifestyle equipment, demand has been out-stripping supply and that's driving up costs.

6cyl > Duckferd
09/25/2013 at 16:28

The Lamborghini Sesto Elemento used the same to pretty great effect. From what I have read chopped strand CF can be nearly as strong as a weave while requiring much less time/financial expense.

It is also common to use a combination of types of composites in various layers to get the specific qualities needed for the part designed. For instance Alfa may use a chopped strand base covered in weave.

4play > Meatcoma
09/25/2013 at 16:32

^The Oppo post above is referencing a 4 month old article that is wrong. The 4C starts at $54,000 in the USA.

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2013…

It's still within the realm of possibility, although I fear the Maserati dealerships wher eit will be sold will mark up the price massively due to huge demand.

Ratchet when he's all hopped up on synthetic energon > Tim (Fractal Footwork)
09/25/2013 at 17:17

I know this is just me being a meathead, but for $80k I don't want a turbo 4 cylinder. If the car doesn't call for a lot of power, I'd much rather see a a high-rpm variable-lift V6 or small displacement V8.

Loping Camshaft > Tim (Fractal Footwork)
09/25/2013 at 17:20

Most important thing about the 4C:

Light weight baby!!!

Crackerjacktype0 > ejp
09/25/2013 at 17:34

The ones around me are still 32k+, and the thought of having gash at the bottom of the aluminum tub =automatic total loss keeps me from ever buying one.

KillerRaccoon - Group J's Sébastien Loeb > Tim (Fractal Footwork)
09/25/2013 at 17:41

Actually, reducing weight does NOT increase top speed, it just lets you take less time getting there. For example, the 2nd fastest production car in the world is a complete pig at 4,200 lbs.

Kinja'd!!!

CPT Speedbump > Tim (Fractal Footwork)
09/25/2013 at 17:44

The most important aspect to me is the lack of a manual transmission, because its the aspect that makes me not care about this car.

ejp > Crackerjacktype0
09/25/2013 at 18:03

Yes, you're absolutely right. Even a parking lot curb incident can cause the aluminum chassis to come unglued, or rip the suspension from the chassis...and in that case, the car really is done.

On the other hand...a parking lot incident involving damage to the rear clamshell can make for a total loss (from an insurance perspective). That means that for a track mule, picking up a perfectly straight car with a salvage title could be insanely cheap! (perfect)

Union of Smog Techs of CA > Tim (Fractal Footwork)
09/25/2013 at 18:09

But after they start getting in accidents our roads will be littered with tire shredding carbon shards.

Shiftright > Meatcoma
09/25/2013 at 18:22

Love the C7 but you're talking Apples and Oranges. The two will never be cross shopped.

Captain_Spadaro > Tim (Fractal Footwork)
09/25/2013 at 18:55

Those headlights, though...

md495 > Tim (Fractal Footwork)
09/25/2013 at 19:08

n/m

MJAB > Tim (Fractal Footwork)
09/25/2013 at 19:45

"... Reducing the weight of a car improves everything: top speed, acceleration, handling, circuit speed, and of course your precious fuel consumption. ..."

And improves BRAKING since it is light and so there is less weigth transfer from back to the front of the car while braking.

Alfa Romeo 4C "just drive".

It is not a car for straight lines, is for the ones that like turns.

MJAB > Tim (Fractal Footwork)
09/25/2013 at 20:16

In Monza circuit, sound

downforce > Xander, Proud of BOXER
09/25/2013 at 20:21

The therm "carbon fibre" is overly used, in a wrong fashion. The correct term is "carbon-fibre composite" or "carbon-fibre reinforced composite". To make structural parts or body panels, you need composite (a combination of resin + carbon-fibre cloth). "Carbon-fibre" itself is just the weave cloth, with no resin applied.

Drakkon- Most Glorious and Upright Person of Genius > Tim (Fractal Footwork)
09/25/2013 at 21:28

Kinja'd!!!

Like eye makeup on a fashion model. Italian car you say?

lingmeister > Duckferd
09/26/2013 at 01:45

BMW is trying to mass produce CFRP using automation, pressing, injecting resin, heating, heating up the glue, all in one step. The 4C is still doing it the old school way, but trying to price it as low as possible. They seem to have to cut corners in alot of other places just to get this tub made, plus their rate of production is so low that they will probably never make any money on it.

lingmeister > 6cyl
09/26/2013 at 01:48

Lamborghini hails their Forged CF as a revolutionary method, but introduces it in a outrageously price car. In the meantime, it is not even utilized for the chassis of the Gallardo replacement.

lingmeister > philipilihp
09/26/2013 at 01:50

The only reason carbon fiber as a fabric is in the lexicon is because rice boys buys the fabric and line their cars with it thinking it is cool. Otherwise CF fabric has no application and CF has always referred to CFRP.

6cyl > lingmeister
09/26/2013 at 01:55

What is the Gallardo replacement? Do you know what it will be?

Why would they put their top technology in their bottom market car? Who would want to buy the Aventador if the cheaper car was better (power/weight not total power)? I think their reasoning comes down to marketing and strategy.

lingmeister > irisfailsafe5000
09/26/2013 at 01:55

Yeah. Trying to go low in price point without doing much R&D on CFRP chassis manufacturing technique, they just used the traditional prepreg molding. Turns out it still cost an outrageous amount, even if they had cut corners and made it not as rigid as the ones in other cars. At least BMW thought they had to go CFRP on their i cars, had to be at a certain price point, and put R&D on how that could be achieved.

lingmeister > 6cyl
09/26/2013 at 02:06

The Gallardo replacement is suppose to be the Cabrera.

Forged composite is not their top technology. It is their newest technology developed in conjunction with Callaway, who has integrated it with their golf clubs. Forged composite is more or less injection molded CRFP using shredded CF strands, making it much cheaper than the traditional way, which the Aventador chassis (and the 4C) are made. Forged composite is not as strong as the traditional prepreg sheet layering since the fibers are short and randomly aligned (which they say is strong in all directions)

585HP > Tim (Fractal Footwork)
09/26/2013 at 03:00

The oven hardens the epoxy resin, not the carbon...

Fezzasus > Tim (Fractal Footwork)
09/26/2013 at 04:12

"significant weight saving over aluminium". Alfa 4C chassis - 65 kg. Elise chassis - 68 kg.

Meatcoma > Shiftright
09/26/2013 at 09:43

Well I assume that if you're not on the list already you're waiting another year. Which technically is fine with me, will give me a year to throw down more on a deposit or pick up a slightly used one for some steep markdown.

stirling.spera > Meatcoma
09/26/2013 at 10:21

A Road & Track editor tweeted that they said $54k at the launch event.

Meatcoma > stirling.spera
09/26/2013 at 10:24

Yea 4play noticed the article which said $86k was from May, in Sept they stated it was $54k.

With only 3500 being made chances are slim, but you never know!

stirling.spera > Meatcoma
09/26/2013 at 10:25

Everybody but Jalopnik was reporting 3,500 per year, not 3,500 total.

Kursa > KillerRaccoon - Group J's Sébastien Loeb
09/26/2013 at 10:28

Try making a aluminium Bugatti Veyron, I doubt it will even break 230.

Meatcoma > stirling.spera
09/26/2013 at 10:59

I meant chances are slim for getting one from the first year of production*

Duckferd > lingmeister
09/26/2013 at 11:02

I'm not sure about cutting corners, other than the fact that they're using a lot of off-the-shelf parts. Do you have any particular examples?

stirling.spera > Meatcoma
09/26/2013 at 11:05

Unfortunately, that's not my problem...I'm sure I could get my hands on one, I just can't afford it.

Xander, Proud of BOXER > downforce
09/26/2013 at 12:25

CFRP

LOLmyMPG > getchapopcorn
09/26/2013 at 12:36

This car falls into the middle of the "exotic sports car" segment. $54,000 for a lightweight, two seat, 240HP car is plenty in today's market. You're competing with the Porsche Boxer, Corvette, BMW Z3/4 (idk what they're calling it now), and a host of other cars...this is the meat and potatos of sports car pricing today.

Aside from the two guys in America who have waited 30 years for an Alfa there is no way people will line up to pay $80k for a car no faster than a Honda S2000. This might initally be limited production, but the whole point of this car is to excersize the ability to mass produce a carbon fiber shell, lower its costs and make it a full-production model.

Crackerjacktype0 > ejp
09/26/2013 at 14:46

I get what you're saying about the clamshell. Funny thing I was looking at buying an Elise several years back and people back then were already mentioning total loss due to damage to the rear engine cover/clamshell...The thing is, with these aluminum spaceframe cars, you'd have to be an expert(or find one) at determining structural integrity of the safety structure in addition to the clamshell damage to tell if the damage is superficial or not. I guess if I got 25k lying around doing nothing I could make that gamble. Although I'd rather put that towards a bmw clownshoe M :P

CPT Speedbump > Tim (Fractal Footwork)
09/26/2013 at 16:58

"Carbon fiber increases chassis rigidity and reduces weight significantly over aluminum and steel alternatives. Reducing the weight of a car improves everything: top speed, acceleration, handling, circuit speed, and of course your precious fuel consumption."

It would weigh even less if it had a manual transmission like it should have.

snackage > KillerRaccoon - Group J's Sébastien Loeb
09/26/2013 at 18:20

It's not about power or weight but power-to-weight.

lingmeister > Duckferd
09/26/2013 at 23:16

cutting corners could mean not having a honeycomb core, or whether the whole chassis is moulded or are they gluing flat CF panels together. You can see that in alum chassis construction where some use cast/moulded parts (space frame) while other rivet flat sheets together.

KillerRaccoon - Group J's Sébastien Loeb > snackage
09/27/2013 at 01:14

No it's not. That's acceleration. Top speed is power-to-drag.

Sky Captain Obvious > Loping Camshaft
09/27/2013 at 02:38

All I can see after this is quirky ass lotus 7 owners zipping around screaming Lightweeeeiiiggghtt!!!!

Loping Camshaft > Sky Captain Obvious
09/27/2013 at 03:10

Haha that would crack me up! As a guy who is not remotely a bodybuilder, but is definitely larger than the average guy, I doubt I could fit in a 7.

quattrofl > mbcoffey
09/27/2013 at 05:46

Kinja'd!!!

Those wheels on the Alfa were first introduced in 2001 on the 156 GTA and haven't changed too much since then. The two wheels have no more common features than that the spokes are forming 5 circles between them.

Duckferd > lingmeister
09/27/2013 at 08:47

Those aren't cost cutting decisions, they're conscious design decisions. You can't "mould" the chassis together if it's using prepreg, you have to lay them up sheet by sheet. You can have a monocoque construction using aluminum whether or not it uses flat sheets or cast components; nobody uses "space frames" in modern car construction anymore, they're used almost exclusively in kit-cars and race cars at this point.